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in order to avoid going over the fiscal cliff? john boehner's already $800 billion in increased tax revenue, not necessarily raising the marginal tax rate on the wealthy, but capping deductions, limiting loopholes, are you with the speaker of the house on that? >> unfortunately, wolf, the policies of president obama have already taken us over the cliff. if you meet with businesses like i do all the time, they've already paired back plans for next year anticipating what's going to happen. we can fix this christmas eve if we want, but we've already hurt the economy and job growth. >> are you with boehner? >> i'm not with boehner. this government doesn't need anymore money. this country needs less government. we're going to have historic levels of revenue to the government this year. >> everyone's taxes are going up at the end of the year if there's no deal. >> we have already offered to extend current tax rates. that's what we should have done six months ago until we could come to some agreement, some compromise on tax reform. >> when you say compromise, where are you ready to compromise as f
saying " called fiscal cliff." david john m. have alluded to my question earlier when i was on line. he mentioned something about multimillionaire's not receiving social security. there is a whole group of us out there. i was raised by depression parents who save, save, saved. they always said they did not need social security. i have a decent teacher pension but when social security kicked in, it was nice to have extra money. on their statistics available on a group of us who have saved and our parents have saved and we do not need social security? guest: i would like to congratulate you and having done what a lot of folks are unable to do and that is saved for your retirement. we encourage all of our members to do more to build up their nest egg. we know that most people are not in your situation. 1/3 opal social security recipients rely entirely on that income for their retirement. there are some folks like you. they do rely on this program to get by in their retirement years. guest: this is something we need to address going forward. the fact is that we are in an era of scarcity. we
hand on the fiscal cliff. house speaker john boehner's facing something of a revolt within gop's ranks over his budget plan. we'll have the latest from washington when we come back. >>> talks between the white house and republicans over the fiscal cliff have ran to something of a holt. john boehner dealing with division in the gop's ranks to his bung budget plan. another shanghai surprise. china's mainland market surge nearly 3%. more austerity. plus, austerity measures are hitting european consumers. retail sales in october fall much more than expected. september also revised sharply to the downside. >>> it was a flat day really for european stocks, slightly negative for u.s. stocks yesterday. we are a little bit higher. the dow is currently some 43 points above fair value. the nasdaq is around four points above fair value. the s&p 500 at the moment is around about four points above fair value. european stocks are up half a percent earlier. we have come off those highs. eurozone pmis a little bit better than expected. but still deeply in contraction territory. uk services pmis dipped
with the president, house speaker john boehner says the white house is stone walling. >> when it comes to the fiscal cliff that's threatening our economy and threatening jobs, the white house is has wasted another week. >> reporter: this morning in his weekly address, president obama is holding a hard line on raising rates for the wealthy. >> and if we're serious about protecting middle-class families, then we're also going to have to ask the wealthiest americans to pay higher tax rates. that's one principle i won't compromise on. >> reporter: but how much higher could be the key. the top tax rate is set to rise from 35% to 39.6% on january 1st. when asked if a middle ground could be found, both boehner and biden showed some wiggle room. >> the top brackets have to go up. it's not a negotiable issue. theoretically we can negotiate how far up. >> reporter: at another local restaurant, the owner has seen enough of washington gridlock. >> i wish those lawmakers would get their [ bleep ] together and get it done and try to help everybody. it would be good if they could do it before the holidays are over
. >> just three weeks of to the fiscal cliff, and president obama and house speaker john boehner had a private meeting at the white house today to discuss a deal. the president and the speaker refused to discuss details about the meeting. some republicans and now putting increased pressure our party leaders to rethink opposition to tax hikes on the wealthy is taking get entitled meant cuts in return. many house republicans refused to support tax cuts under circumstances. the cresdemocrats have been settled out rushing through entitlement hewlett-packard is up 4%. the stock up to $14.35 at we have rumors floating that carl icon is buying up shares in the company. >> we will be watching closely. will be back at 915 with our financial analyst raw black. >> traffic backed up on this bug in morning 101 both about rep the 87 interchange. >> our financial analyst rober black will have more on wall street when we come back. p0jg welcome back the time is 8:09 a.m.. if you like to turn holiday shopping into a last minute marathon macy's is willing to help you out. the department store chain wi
spark when it came to negotiating a deal to avoid the fiscal cliff, which is the christmas present the country needs. today we heard president obama's response to the proposal that house speaker john boehner put on the table yesterday. >> the speaker's proposal right now is still out of balance. >> of out of balance. kind of similar to what republicans said last week when the president sent over his terms. so now what? will they sit down and talk it through? well, not according to at least one senior republican aide who told cnn today, no conversations today, no e-mails, tweets, carrier pigeons. as for boehner and obama, they actually did see each other in person at the white house holiday party last night in black tie. while other lawmakers waited in line to get the photo with the president, multiple sources from both sides of the aisle tell cnn that boehner wasn't among them. so much for holiday cheer. we have this picture. we're wait fworg the day there's a fiscal cliff. there wasn't total silence in washington today. senate majority leader harry reid spoke up. but in his case,
, and ten year treasury down to 1.59%. no progress in resolving the fiscal cliff today. i know, you're not surprised by that, but we can report there were, well, some contact between the two principle players in the negotiations if there were negotiations. president obama and speaker john boehner actually talked to one another. it was on the telephone. it was not the face-to-face meeting the speaker says is necessary, but it was the first time that the two men have spoken in a week. for the latest on these stalled negotiations, we turn to fox news chief white house correspondent ed henry for the report. >> trying to lay blame for stalled budget talks on republicans, president obama today wratcheted up pressure on boehner. >> nobody wants this done more than me. >> for the first time, plan for massive spending cuts from going over the fiscal cliff warning business executives, the economy could take another hit if republicans decide to extend just to middle class tax cuts to avoid the cliff for now and come back next year with more leverage to tie spending cuts and medicare reform to
with the fiscal cliff giving investors a reason to be less than optimistic? joining me is john, and carl, senior economi for deutsche bank. gentlemen, thank you for being here. start with the treasury secretary. the man in charge of our treasury is out telling everyone that the administration he works for is a part of is perfectly prepared to go over the fiscal cliff in order to raise a tax rate to 39.6%. does that make any sense to you? are you shocked, surprised? >> well, i guess i'm not surprised given we're in the early stages of the discussion, but for the economists and forecasters out there calling this is the fiscal slope, not a cliff or believe it's worthwhile to go over the cliff, it's not the case. it is, without a doubt, a cliff. it's $600 billion. the economy cannot withstand that shock. it's slowing in anticipation. lou: $6 billion in taxes? >> spending reductions and tax increases. the economy can't handle that. without a doubt, head into recession if we're over the cliff. lou: now, are you in agreement? >> i am, carl's absolely right, nevertheless, the markets have effectively be
at the white house to discuss how to resolve the fiscal cliff. >> few details were released about the meeting yesterday. >> if lawmakers fail to strike a deal before the end of the year, tax increases and spending cuts will go into effect. some analysts say could push the economy back into recession. >> the latest count finds the number of homeless people stayed about the sanctions in january of 2011 and january 2012. the house and other rebel the provinces a sluggish economy as some what countered affect the house the homeless that numbered being around 633,000 people. the percentage of homeless vets as well as those homes for more than a year each dropped by 7 percent. the obama administration has set a goal of eliminating homeless veterans and chronic homeless as by the end of 2015. >> coastal communities destroyed by superstar on sandy are rushing to rebuild their boardwalk in time for next summer. they are in a race to finish by the end of may to retain tourist money they will need next year. seaside heights, new jersey gets about 75% of its budget for tourism. sounds like bellmawr, new
committee. i want to talk to you about the fiscal cliff. but, first, i want to talk about jim demint. >> sure. >> what is this say about the senate, about the ability of someone like jim demint, an avowed conservative, to accomplish what he wants to accomplish within that chamber, that he felt the need or saw the opportunity to step outside of the chamber? what does that say about the folk like yourself who are still within it? >> well, jim demint is going to continue to be a leader in this country for years to come. specifically on conservative issues. he's going to continue to push for ways to cut spending and to limit the size of government. and i welcome that. he's choosing to do it outside now rather than inside the senate but he's had a huge, positive influence on the senate and we're going to continue to see that for years to come. >> senator, this may seem like a simple question, but i wonder, and a lot of people do is the senate from your perspective, is the senate a difficult place to be if you are someone who comes from executive background or someone committed to gett
" next, john boehner says the president is slow walking to the edge of the fiscal cliff. but the house speaker did give us one flash of hope if you listen to his words very carefully. the u.s. is updating its military plans against syria as new intelligence shows assad's regime is loading sarin gas into bombs. and president obama's pot problem. let's go "outfront." >>> i'm tom foreman in for erin burnett. "outfront" tonight, the magic number after a whole week of harsh words here in washington and threats too, did house speaker john boehner hint ever so slightly at a compromise today that could finally edge us away from the dreaded fiscal cliff? it comes down to tax rates. this is a huge sticking point in the stalled negotiations between the president and mr. boehner. obama says the top rate on household income above $250,000 should rise from 35% to 39.6%. boehner wants the rate to stay at 35% or even lower. but what about meeting in the middle? around 37%? listen carefully to the speaker when he was asked today whether that rate could be the answer to this impasse. >> there are a lot
and social security should be part of negotiations on fiscal cliff. we will talk with john larson on how house democrats take on the issue and stephen ola and christina martin and david john of the heritage foundation, on the long-term solvency of social security. "washington journal" is live every morning on c-span at 7:00 a.m. eastern. >> the white house was very controversial as most americans were. >> it was designed for appellate, but americans were having a pellets. it was not particularly awe-inspiring. a european diplomat told the congress that it was neither large or are of the awe-inspiring nature. to . >> "new york times" critic kitty goldberg gathered photographs in history on sunday evening at 730 eastern and pacific on c-span3 american history tv. >> president obama this evening said the u.s. now recognizes the main syrian opposition group as the legitimate representative of its country's people. turkish journalism has reported that the new america foundation. two men have returned from the country into the to the west can do more to help the syrian people. [inaudible conve
story. house speaker john boehner sent the president a new fiscal cliff counteroffer, we'll have more on that in a minute. and a change in the house plan, the house will come in at 6:30 eastern with one vote on what's called the journal, the record of the previous day's proceedings. members will not vote today as they had planned earlier on a motion to negotiate with the senate on the bill to set defense programs and policy for next year. and as the fiscal cliff negotiations continue we spoke earlier today with a capitol hill reporter. >> what was the purpose of speaker boehner's appearance to speak about the fiscal cliff? >> you saw each major congressional player give some sort of speech but i think anything happening of consequence is happening between speaker bayne around the president and it's happening in a closely guarded, off-camera, way, they're actually trying to negotiate a deal and the rule of washington is when a deal is being done, people don't talk about it. when a deal is collapse, you know because they're both shouting about what the other side is doing. you saw speak
and house speaker john boehner met today at the white house to talk about ways to resolve the fiscal cliff. meanwhile, we have brand-new reaction from lawmakers from both sides of the aisle speaking out today with just weeks left to reach a deal and little reported progress. the fight appears to be moving towards spending cuts and more and more republicans seem to open to the call to raise taxes on the wealthy. >> there is a growing group of folks that are looking at this and realizing we don't have a lot of cards as it relates to the tax issue. we 6 one house and that is it. a lot of people are putting forth a theory and i think it has merit where i go ahead and give the president the 2%, one speaker calls for an increase in revenues to 39.6 and the other things that the president hats called for. we have done trillion in cuts but we realize there will have to be other cuts and serious negotiations about that. we will have different views. my view and senator corker's views are different but we will have to find spending cuts. >> heather: brad blakeman is assistant to george w. bush and j
. and in just about 15 minutes, democrats will be speaking out about the fiscal cliff saying medicaid should not be subject to cuts. in the past 48 hours since president obama and john boehner met face to face, no details on the discussions have -- have been released. the president said he's willing to compromise but maintains his stance on tax increases for the wealthy. >> we ask the wealthiest americans to pay 2%. i won't comhe promice on -- compromise on that >> reporter: and then an official came on tv and said they could save money by making tax cuts to the food stamp program. >>> aig is selling off most of its profit and the government will end up with a profit of $22 billion, to many people's surprise. aig was rescued in 2008 just before it had to file for bankruptcy. now aig executives say the company may be able to pay a dividends to the shareholders by next summer. >>> we're learning about an up expected new fee that's part of the reforms. it's a temporary $63 per person fee designed to help pay for people with preexisting conditions. it will hit health plans affecting 9 0 million
has announced that the house gop has sent a counteroffer on the fiscal cliff deal to president obama. let's go right to rich edson for more on this breaking story. rich? >> aides say this is an exchange of partial proposals to try to get the ball moving a little bit after some type of impasse over the last few days. this is basically an offer that the house republicans say they have just sent to the white house but there are still major difference ares here. this is from a boehner spokesperson saying the longer the white house slow-walks this process the closer our economy gets to the fiscal cliff. there is major business lobbyist out there telling us right now the discussions are focusing on process. how do to it. not necessarily substance. so there are no details on what these offers exactly state. they're not even really getting out on capitol hill right now. so we're still watching it to maintain. again you've got the exchange of partial offers at least coming out of the white house and from house republicans but they still remain fairly far apart. melissa: rich, you have been ri
. and then at 9:00 eastern, president obama and house speaker john boehner. they also spoke about the fiscal cliff today. the president said republicans might be willing to agree to higher tax rates on the wealthy in january. then the house speaker called on the obama administration to respond to the republicans' deficit reduction proposal that was released earlier this week. president obama is at 9:00 eastern and then speaker boehner. at the museum today, florida senator marco rubio sat down with michaelen of "politico." he answered questions about the fiscal cliff. republican outreach to hispanic voters and a potential campaign for president. this is 45 minutes. [applause] >> thank you very much. you had a late night. >> not really. >> is bob still here? what would you like to ask senator rubio? [laughter] >> are you still doing this? >> ask him a real question. this is a great chance. >> last night you talked about a new direction for the republican party. and one of the things that you talked about is education. and how to make higher education cheaper, how to reform pell grants. what will be
. >> as for the fiscal cliff, there appears to be a momentary break in the clouds when john boehner said he would be open to a tax rate increase on wealthier americans, just what the president wants. >> there are a lot of things possible, but none of it will be possible if the president insists on his position, insists on my way or the highway. hours later boehner put out a statement saying as i've said many, many, many times, i oppose tax rate increases because it cost american jobs. that has not changed and will not change. democrats say that just won't work. >> could it be because the republicans are holding the middle income tax cuts, as they have all along, hostage to tax cuts for the wealthy. >> after a week where republicans and the house and senate signal a willingness, one senator came up with another solution. >> all of the republicans in the house vote present, let democrats raise taxes as high as they want, let the president sign it and they can own a tax increase. >> the uncertainty over the increase could stop it dead in it's tracks. >>> we've seen a number of companies say it's not their w
for your time. >> good to see you. >>> the big three. how is john boehner performing as fiscal cliff negotiator. there's a petition drive demanding the president and lawmakers resolve the crisis or else. you are watching weekends with alex witt. wasn't my daughter's black bean soup spectacular? [ man thinking ] oh, this gas. those antacids aren't working. oh no, not that, not here! [ male announcer ] antacids don't relieve gas. gas-x is designed to relieve gas. gas-x. the gas xperts. well, having a ton of locations doesn't hurt. and a santa to boot! [ chuckles ] right, baby. oh, sir. that is a customer. oh...sorry about that. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. fedex office. plays a key role throughout our lives. one a day men's 50+ is a complete multivitamin designed for men's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day men's 50+. when you give a child a toy, it has to work. ♪ make just one someone happy and when it's a toys for tots child, well, what could be more important? so this year, every hasbro toy donated to toys for to
will push back on president obama's demand for tax hikes on the rich when it comes to the fiscal cliff. but treasury secretary timothy geithner says the white house will not give in. >> no prospect to an agreement that doesn't involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest americans. remember it's only 2%. >> geithner adds the obama administration is, quote, absolutely prepared to go off the cliff, if necessary. joining me now is van jones, cnn contributor and former obama administration official. good morning. >> god morning to you. >> so, van, i guess my first question that's eatsy for geithner to say, we're perfectly willing to go off the fiscal cliff. that means a tax hike on middle class americans and maybe some of them are thinking this morning i'm not really so happy geithner said that. >> it might have been inartful for him to say it the way he said it. i think he is making a very important point, which is that the american people did vote. they voted for the one thing the president said very clearly, which is that tax rates would go up on the wealthiest. it's an
the house republican conference spoke about the debt and deficit and the late etc. fiscal cliff negotiations. house speaker john boehner and the white house traded a second round of proposals yesterday on the budget cus that begin to take effect in january of 2013. this is nearly half an hour. >> good morning, everyone. i'm really proud to stand here today with the house republicans and my colleagues to tell a very important story and it's a story of hard working americans and their families. and let me tell you there's no story that is more powerful. the story of all americans, it's the story of moms an dads, husbands and wives, grandparents that work hard and sacrifice, so that they can leave a better america to their children and their grandchildren. and as the debate is looming over the fiscal cliff, we stand here to fight for those hard working americans and their families. because as the federal government grows larger and larger, the middle class is squeezed more and more. and as i -- i'm a mom. i have two kids. when my daughter was born two years ago, her share of the national debt w
:00 eastern. john boehner makes remarks on the fiscal cliff. we will show you that when the happens. by now, a little bit more about the fiscal cliff. >> we turn our attention this morning about unemployment benefits and how insurance could back -- how insurance could be impacted. thank you for coming in. we want to start the discussion. when we're talking about unemployment insurance, what specific programs are we talking about here? >> unemployment insurance is the combination of federal and state programs. it usually lasts up to six weeks. it can be extended up to 93 weeks, depending on which they were in. it is this extension that we're really talking about as part of the fiscal cliff. >> that is what might be cut. that is what automatically expires. we know it cost $30 billion to continue additional unemployment benefits. of the deal i want to make, the benefits should continue. firm stand. we have seen in the past obama host: what specific benefits do guest: usually some kind of a cash benefit or they may help the search for a job. it is usually about $300 a week. it can vary from sta
on the fiscal cliff. here's the wall street journal -- but then here's the "washington times this morning with their deadline -- headline -- so those are two headlines on house speaker john boehner and how he is doing in the fiscal cliff tops. headline is the president and the speaker both press each other. so that the latest in the back and forth on the fiscal cliff talks. the polls out, this is one from gallup. and the new york post shows this poll -- back to our topic, our question, do you support or oppose right-to-work laws? paul in utica, michigan, democrat. caller: i live in suburban detroit. i am a retired union worker, not automotive, by the way. i don't think my union is a thug in any way, but i think it's a sad day for the state of michigan. if the workers in this country cannot look to michigan like they always have, for a decent pay, and i think that is where we are headed, i just think it is a sad day. all the people who voted for these republicans, they are going to get what they asked for. this is what is going on here. i really sad about it. host: the car czar for michiga
fiscal cliff talks with the white house. on capitol hill for one day at least, all was pretty quiet. posturing and finger pointing kind of stopped. cnn political reporter shannon travis joins us now live from washington. what's the the latest on the talks or the silence? >> the silence seems to be golden, john. remember last week when all the players involved seem to be posturing and positioning and talking about negotiations? not so much, at least in the past few days. we know president obama and house speaker john boehner had a one-on-one meeting, right, on sunday, their first since mid-november. what were the details from that meeting and from the ongoing discussions? they're not really -- both sides are not really being forthcoming with what the substance of those conversations, both sides yesterday, the white house and the republican leadership put out statements. they're essentially the same. i'll read just one from boehner's press secretary. discussions with the white house are taking place but we have no detail to share about the substance of those conversations. the republi
the fiscal cliff. meanwhile, we will talk about at the top of the hour, in one day on friday, republican legislators in michigan forced through right-to-work legislation, destroying labor unions in a state that labor built, but unions are getting organized. they are going to be big -- there are going to be big protests and they are they say they will not allow them to get away with this. we will talk about that. the latest. today's current news update from lease a ferguson out in los angeles. hi, lisa. good morning. >> hey, bill. good morning, everyone. big banks are in for another round of trouble thanks to a fresh waves of lawsuits facing claims they sold more than $1 trillion of bond securities backed by home mortgages. banks have paid tens of billions of dollars to settle other lawsuits and some in the industry fear they are facing up to another $300,000,000,000 in losses. many homeowners and investors could argue they deserve a payout from the banks after seeing their mortgages collapse during the financial crisis but economists say those costs cou
. i'm ainsley earhart filling in for ali this morning and still no end in sight for the fiscal cliff hanger. >> it comes to the fiscal cliff that's threatening our economy and threatening jobs, and the white house has wasted another week. >> ainsley: why speaker john boehner says the president's my way or the highway approach is getting us nowhere. >> clayton: and washington state got high, but how the anti-drug program says it won't dare teach our middle schoolers about marijuana, it's not age appropriate. do they have a point? we report, you decide. >> eric: and super storm sandy couldn't wipe away his home, but something else did. >> she said are you sure your house is gone. miss, you misplace a pen or pencil, you don't misplace a house. >> clayton: vanished, that man will tell us how that house just vanished. "fox & friends" hour four starts right now. ♪ . [rooster crowing] >> welcome into "fox & friends" on this saturday morning, thanks so much for waking up with us. this is ainsley. >> ainsley: hi. >> clayton: in for ali and eric for dave and i'm the only one on the regular
cuts. he's been working on a deal with john boehner. they met yesterday to discuss the fiscal cliff. the president will visit a diameter eco-plant in redford. and as "the detroit news" reports, the company plans to announce $109 investment in that plan for new technology and expanding their production. you can watch the president's remarks live at about 2:00 eastern over on our companion network, c-span. >> friday, former reagan officials reflected on the 1987 negotiations on a nuclear missile treaty with the soviet union. the intermediate nuclear forces treaty, or inf, led to the destruction of thousands of europe-based nuclear missiles on both sides. speakers here will include former assistant secretary of state richard burt, former u.s. ambassador to the soviet union, jack matlock, and will also there from former assistant secretary of state rozanne ridgway. the american foreign service association posted this hour and 20 minute event. >> i would like to wish all other good morning. one. i'm susan johnson, the president and i would like to extend a very warm welcome to you all. a
a fiscal cliff deal. the first read team is asking the question how big of a deal will we see? governor christie meets with president obama this time at the white house, and it is just one of the things we thought you should know. be sure to check out our "news nation" tumblr page. you find behind the scenes pictures, and thank you for checking it out and liking our pictures. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] campbell's green bean casserole. it's amazing what soup can do we believe the more you know, the better you trade. so we have ongoing webinars and interactive learning, plus, in-branch seminars at over 500 locations, where our dedicated support teams help you know more so your money can do more. [ rodger ] at scottrade, seven dollar trades are just the start. our teams have the information you want when you need it. it's another reason more investors are saying... [ all ] i'm with scottrade. [ man thinking ] oh, this gas. those antacids aren't working. oh no, not that, not here! [ male announcer ] antacids don't relieve gas. gas-x is designed to relieve gas. gas-x. the gas xperts. bp has
administration is absolutely ready to go over the fiscal cliff. >> what we got today was a assemble nar on hoaseminar on h. >> the vast majority of the media is on his side. no matter what he says, no matter what he does, even though what he's doing is outrageous, but his own party won't support him. >> the republicans have conceded the language. >> we could probably solve this in about a week. it's not that tough. >> it was week. >> president obama has said that he has pen in hand and he's prepared to sign the middle income tax cuts. >> you have a president of the united states that has the mighty pen. you bailed out the banks. bail out the american people that don't have homes for the holidays. >> in his second term i hope he will offer fresh ideas and serious leadership. >> we need a response from the white house. >> i'm hea here to tell you that nobody wants to get this done more than me. >> it's true that president obama won reelection and i congratulate him on his victory, but on january 20th, he'll face a stagnant economy and a fiscal mess. >> our people in an overwhelming way su
and academia, and they'll discuss the poll's results, middle class perspectives on the economy and the fiscal cliff. it's expected to get under way shortly, and we're bringing it to you live here on c-span2. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> good morning, all. good morning. i'm john fox sullivan, i'm publisher at large of atlantic media company, we publish the atlantic, national journal, government executive, a new product, quartz, and we want to welcome you to this special event this morning. and i want to welcome our c-span audience which is tuning in. um, this is the 15th allstate/national journal heartland poll that we're going to be discussing this morning. since april of 2009, allstate and national journal and the atlantic have partnered in surveying the public opinion of a little bit oriented towards the mitt middle class -- middle class, but public at large. this was initiated by our friend ed reilly and ron brownstein of national journal and post the economic crisis, we decided to see what the american public pe
Search Results 0 to 43 of about 44 (some duplicates have been removed)